Posted on Friday, 1st May 2009 by Patrick Dorwin
No, not a thief in the night, but the thieves you elected.
Finance panel backs transit board, sales tax
The Legislature’s Joint Finance Committee early Friday approved creating a board that could impose a sales tax of up to 1% in Milwaukee County to pay for transit, parks and emergency medical services.The committee also voted to create a commuter rail authority in Milwaukee, Racine and Kenosha counties, which would be funded with a $16 fee on car rentals.
The vote for a sales tax came at 2 a.m., after the Democrat-controlled committee was bogged down for 12 hours in closed-door meetings. The budget meeting was to begin at 11 a.m. Thursday but did not start until 11 p.m.; the motions on transit weren’t unveiled until after 1 a.m. Friday.
The sales tax could rise as high as 6.6% in Milwaukee County under the plan adopted by the committee. The full Legislature and Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle would have to sign off on that proposal.
Yeah, another unelected board with taxing authority, just what Milwaukee needs.
Rep. Pedro Colón is one of the biggest supporters of this mess got his personal pet project in: “Legislators mandated that the commuter rail line have a stop along National Ave., which runs through Colón’s district.” Shocking, huh?
Anyone think that this group of thieves won’t be looking for money from surrounding counties next?
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May 1st, 2009 at 11:43 am
Milwaukee has, by a wide margin, the worst public transit of anywhere I’ve lived. I can’t think of a metropolitan area anywhere with one million plus residents with a weaker public transportation system.
It’s particularly odd when you realize we’re #1 in many drinking categories and therefore need public transit all the more.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_alc_con_bin_dri-health-alcohol-consumption-binge-drinkers
Anyone else find it odd and shocking that bars in this area frequently have their own buses or shuttles, half-assedly stepping in where our tax money fails?
At this point I have to say that even a crooked, patronage-saddled boondoggle of an RTA is a better option than the nothing we have now.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:49 pm
The groundwork’s already laid to take from western Racine/Kenosha Counties. An attempt by Robin Vos to exempt them as Doyle’s original proposal did, despite the fact that there are but a couple of U-Haul companies and a tiny rental company in Burlington, failed on a party-line vote.
May 1st, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Cranky, why don’t you move back to where they have a better transit system and leave us alone! Besides, you’re full of crap. WE DON’T NEED LIGHT RAIL OR ANY OTHER SYSTEM THAT WILL KILL US TAXPAYERS. We’re already over-taxed!
May 2nd, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Cranky-
What in the hell does the state’s binge drinking rate and bars offering shuttles have to do with spending HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS on choo-choo trains?
You know why those bars offer shuttles? It creates an incentive for those people to go to their bars. And guess what? They more than make the costs of that back. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be offering them.
Would you care to tell me what buses do that trains won’t? Other than cost way more money, look prettier, and serve fewer areas, what’s the relative advantage of a train?
May 2nd, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Odd? Shocking? Absolutely not…not even close. What’s wrong with private industry satisfying a need or demand? The bars that do it are being responsible and are being good citizens. Here’s a good example…the best way to get to a Brewer game (unless you’re tailgating) is to enjoy a beer or two at Kelly’s Bleachers, get a ticket from the bartender then use if for their shuttle. They drop you off practically at the front door.
At this point I have to say that even a crooked, patronage-saddled boondoggle of an RTA is a better option than the nothing we have now.
That’s the most ignorant thing I’ve read in quite a while.
May 2nd, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Milwaukee county is losing population, an additional regressive tax will not help. Our current bus system employees have a more costly health care and retirement plan that county employees.
May 2nd, 2009 at 3:51 pm
If a choo choo was needed to help out Bluemound Road and Water Street taverns. The businesses would build it.
There is no NEED for choo choo’s. It’s a WANT by liberals who like trains and havne’t grown up yet.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:59 am
Cranky has exemplified with just a few words why the government is incapable of centrally planning an economy. Businesses find an incentive and value-added services in utilizing shuttle services for their customers and his solution is to build trains?
May 3rd, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Rules of the Apostrophe:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/621/01/
May 3rd, 2009 at 3:56 pm
A handy hyperlink for Foust:
http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy
May 3rd, 2009 at 7:45 pm
I value your opinions - honestly, I do. I would just like to know if any of you have lived in a metropolitan area with superior rapid transit. New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Washington? Paris, London? I;m curious if others who have lived in any of those cities feel the same way about public transit being a waste.
I’m also curious - do you all feel the same about the tax that pays for your ballpark? (If not, could you explain why?)
May 3rd, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Pierre Marquette was building a campfire by rubbing two sticks together when all of those were over-crowded cities.
Seattle’s “cool”…let’s build a giant sprinkler system overhead and have guys throwing fish all over the 3rd Ward.
Every dollar used for a choo-choo is one less available for MPS employees
May 3rd, 2009 at 8:33 pm
No fair bringing up Seattle, they built a freakin’ monorail!
But Ron - you avoided my questions!
P.S. I love this debate, but take a moment to be thankful you live in a country as great as ours - in some places you wouldn’t be able to tell a fellow citizen they’re “ignorant” or “full of crap” without fear. I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else.
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:18 pm
No, Cranky, what causes that behavior in some people is anonymity. They hide behind pseudonyms. They act like the people here aren’t really people. They’re just cut-outs, just shadow puppets in their minds.
May 3rd, 2009 at 9:48 pm
Cranky,
I’ve spent substantial time in DC. Loved their metro system. But here’s the crucial point about it: even with nearly every person in the city using it, it still bleads money. And they have a much, MUCH denser population than Milwaukee.
So how is a system in Milwaukee going to run efficiently in a financial sense with fewer people using it? In fact, many fewer people would even consider it a choice because parking is not nearly as bad in Milwaukee as DC.
May 3rd, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Just pretend that a Milwaukee County bus is a train car, a liberated train car.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:03 pm
Brian,
You make two good points. One is that public transit is a chicken-egg problem. Nobody will use it if it’s not good enough. But if nobody’s using it, it’s hard to justify spending the money to make it better. The solution, sadly, is finding a politician who’s either getting something out of it or it willing to lay his/her career on the line. Guess which is more likely. And yes, it is always going to be subsidized, like city water or garbage collection (we don’t pay the retail rate for either of those either.)
The parking question is even more interesting. I lived in Boston without a car. I lived in San Francisco and would never have given up my car. Understand, San Francisco is a worse parking city than Boston - in fact it’s worse than Manhattan in terms of available spaces per registered car. But SF politicians will never put their butts on the line to get a good transit system installed, so hunting for a space for an hour is preferable to even thinking about the Muni (subway/streetcar) system. In Boston, the T (subway/streetcar) has millionaires in business suits riding next to punks in torn jeans and nobody thinks anything of it.
Milwaukee could, in my ever so humble opinion, be a more successful convention city if conventioneers could get around more easily. This is a really fun city, and adding a streetcar or light rail mentally creates the sense among potential tourists that if you go there, you’ll be able to get around, go see the museums, the Third Ward, maybe even the Miller tour.
The baseball thing is interesting. When other cities were trying desperately to squeeze their ballparks downtown, I thought it odd that Milwaukee surrounded theirs with acres of asphalt, but now I get it - it’s the tailgate thing. So maybe the culture won’t cotton to taking a train to the ballgame, which is so ingrained in me as the best way to do it. Eating brats and playing cornhole (I still can’t believe it’s really called that) in a dirty parking lot are not important to me, but OK, I get it.
Since I was picked on for the bar/bus thing which I find completely bizarre, maybe someone can explain it to me. So you go to a bar, and drink. Then you take a bus to the ball game. I’m with you so far. Then the bus takes you back to the bar. OK. So there you are at a bar after the Brewers beat the Cubs, and I imagine you’re not drinking iced tea. So…. then what? That’s where I lose the point. Do you stay over at the bar? Does the bar’s bus drive you to your home? If not, then you’re driving even drunker than you were before the game, if you had just driven yourself to Miller Park, right? Wouldn’t it be nicer to take a train home?
PS John Foust, thanks. I’ve got a thick skin and I meant what I said - soldiers have given their very lives so people could call me an idiot on the internet…
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Cranky, don’t know about you, but we have friends. One of them drinks the complimentary sodas most bars make available to the designated driver. Ta-da, we all get home, and without a billion-dollar boondoggle. Most people are fully capable of living their lives without your control.
And the train won’t take any of us home. The train won’t take any of us anywhere near our homes. I’ve been to cities with trains; and there’s always a hike in the rain between the train and the museum, or the train and the friend’s house. I like hikes, but they’re stupid and unsafe after midnight.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:22 pm
Heather,
Personally, no, I have no friends.
More seriously, not enough Wisconsinites have the kind of friends you do. I’m glad you take designated driving seriously. Moving here has been an eye-opener.
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/motorist/drunkdriving/index.htm
Drunken driving in Wisconsin is
Prevalent:
* Wisconsin has the highest rate of drunken driving in the nation. More than 26 percent of Wisconsin adults who were surveyed admitted that they had driven under the influence of alcohol in the previous year, according to a nationwide study by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services released in April 2008.
* More than 42,000 drivers - about equal to the population of Fond du Lac - were convicted of drunken driving offenses in Wisconsin in 2007.
Deadly:
* Alcohol-related crashes killed 337 people in Wisconsin and injured more than 5,500 in 2007.
* Approximately 46 percent of all fatal traffic crashes in Wisconsin are alcohol-related, and 47 percent of all fatal motorcycle crashes in Wisconsin are alcohol-related.
May 4th, 2009 at 7:44 am
I think part of Heather’s point is that a train really won’t change that. How many people attending the game live on the train route? I’m guessing not a high %. Also, not to get off topic but, but 337 dead in 09? Wonder how many dead from regular flu.
May 4th, 2009 at 8:37 am
Mr. Cranky,
I’m sure Milwaukee also leads the nation in welfare recipients, felons, foster care recipients, parking tickets, murder, truancy rate, drug crime, inattentive driving, speeding tickets…
At some point we are going to have to stop blaming the rest if the state of WI, and concentrate on the real problems.
This business drunk driving is terrible, but this business of letting them go when we already spend way to much to catch them is even worse. This business of letting the guys leave the court house to drive home right after their license is suspended is typical of our system. Catch and release. Doyle is now proposing the same thing.
Stop believing this media hype, it is just a means to get you to look the other way as Doyle picks your pocket and wrecks your communities by giving you the criminals back.
May 4th, 2009 at 9:02 am
To Cranky’s question:
“I would just like to know if any of you have lived in a metropolitan area with superior rapid transit. New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Washington? Paris, London?”
I grew up in NYC, and the NYC subway is indeed a marvel in that you can go just about anywhere in NYC on it (even if it is dirty and noisy- what do you expect for something that’s over a century old?). But, NYC is a special case- because of its very high population density, and because Manhattan is an island, mass car transportation is not possible.
But because it’s not that difficult to drive around Milwaukee, just about everyone who can, does.
And even in NYC, the situation changes when you look at the entire metro area rather than just NYC.
That is, regional rail transit from New Jersey to NYC mostly does not work well, because there’s not enough parking near the train stops and the trains in New Jersey are too far from where people live and when you get to NYC you still have to take a subway or cab to get where you’re going.
What works in New Jersey is express buses that gather passengers from a few subdivisions and make a few stops in NYC (not just the train station). The bus stops near where people live, and takes them closer to where they work, and so it’s faster door-to-door than the train (now, thinnk western Racine County?).
And, again, this is NYC- where driving from New Jersey to Manhattan means an hour-plus wait to get into the Lincoln Tunnel or G. Washington bridge (the buses have their own lanes), and Manhattan parking rates are astounding.
All of which means (1) there will never be anywhere near the demand for public transit in the Milwaukee metro area that exists around NYC, and (2) even in areas with an extensive existing rail systems, express buses are often a better solution.
May 4th, 2009 at 9:50 am
If many of the 42,000 are because of the revolving door is letting people get three or four. Then the number/problem is ~12,000/3.5 = 12,000. How many of the 12,000 DUI are from Milwaukee county?
The media is clearly manipulating you to write blank check for Doyle, in the name of the children. Wake up!
Sort of like when they exclaim we need to raise taxes for the roads and bridges, but what percent of the budget is for roads and bridges? <2% I recall. So, when Doyle steals from the transportation budget, for some other project, then twist your arm to get it refilled, who exactly is he bending over, and was it for the roads or pushing his agenda/programs forward?
May 4th, 2009 at 9:51 am
More seriously, not enough Wisconsinites have the kind of friends you do. I’m glad you take designated driving seriously. Moving here has been an eye-opener.
And what in the world makes you think any sort of subsidies for trains or transit is going to make people take them? Are you going to take away their car keys? Their cars?
May 4th, 2009 at 9:56 am
Cranky -
I live in Milwaukee and work in Shitcago. I take the Amtrak only because the downtown office is a mile from Union Station. BUT there is no way on God’s green Earth, that I would deal any combination of Amtrak, Metra, The L or CTA. There are people whose public transit commute consists of two trains, a bus and a walk to get to/from work in 2 hours - each way. Yes you can get anywhere on public transit - as long as you have the time.
One of my co-workers doesn’t own a car. When we have to go out to Hoffman Estates - she takes the Metra to Union Station, then the Blue Line to O’hare and finally a bus to Hoffman - her commute is just under 2 hours each way. While I can drive from Milwaukee to Hoffman in an hour 45 minutes.
Finally - one thing that neither you nor any of the blasted choo choo supporters gets is the population density. Yes SE Wisconsin does have a population of two million people - spread out over 2622 square miles(762people/sq mile). Even in Milwaukee County it is only 3929 people/sq mile. Compared to Boston 12,377/Sq Mile or NY 27,147/sq mile, or Chicago 12,649/sq mile
We have 1/3 the density of Boston or Chicago, 1/7 the density of NY.
The simple fact is that we don’t have the population to support the choo choo. Milwaukeeans don’t ride public transit. There is a reason that bus lines keep getting cut. And it isn’t because Scott Walker is in charge. It is because NO ONE rides them. And yes, I do like the buses. I rode them everyday when I worked downtown. The Flyer was/is a great service.
Finally - with taxes driving businesses and productive members of the community away - we won’t people needing public transit to get to work… because there won’t be any private sector jobs left in the area.
May 4th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
You cite the density numbers for the the cities of Boston, Chicago, and New York but the county numbers for Milwaukee. The City of Milwaukee’s population density is 6214 people/square mile. Yes not as high as the cities you mention (but much higher than you say), and higher than numerous other cities with recently built rail transportation system.
May 4th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
There are some valid points here. Public transit is not always easier. Agreed. Milwaukee’s population density won’t support something like NYC, I agree completely. I’m just amused that the proposed alternative is… nothing.
> Milwaukeeans don’t ride public transit.
Or recycle, or patronize local businesses (with local jobs) over mall chains, or refuse to get behind the wheel of a car when drunk…
Fifty years ago you might have written a lot of generalizations about Milwaukeeans, and some of them would have been negative but accurate. I’m more optimistic about the capacity of people in this area to change for the better than you are.
If gas hits $4-$5 a gallon again (i.e. we elect another oil company executive president) then public transit might start to sound like a good idea…
> And what in the world makes you think any sort > of subsidies for trains or transit is going to > make people take them?
Make them? No. Ever throw a recyclable can in the garbage because you can’t find a recycling bin? Does it mean you don’t want to recycle, ever, and are permanently committed to crapping up the earth unless someone makes you stop? I hope not!
By the way, one of my questions has gone unanswered. Can I assume everyone criticizing my viewpoint was against the (ongoing) Miller Park sales tax? It would have been ok with all of you if the Brewers went to North Carolina, right? Just as long as you didn’t have that $0.001 sales tax in the five counties. I just want to take the temperature here, ball team vs. transit, ’cause now I’m really cranky.
I was shocked at the high property taxes here, absolutely. At the same time, I’m constantly thrilled by the wonderful parks, schools (not MPS, no) and amenities available to me as a Milwaukee county resident. California is a falling-apart dung-hole, mostly because the anti- property tax zealots pushed Prop. 13 and choked off a main source of revenue at the local level. Taxes are a trade-off, and I get that. I just want to see mine spent on infrastructure and jobs, not retractable-roof palaces with TGIFridays in the outfield.
May 4th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Problems with a train are many, too many to list here. All we will be doing is exporting crime from Milwaukee to other areas or from Kenosha to Milwaukee. You still have to take transportation to get to the train. Even from the airport, you’d have to lug you belongings to a bus then catch the train. Now how about the winter…who in their right mind will wait in the cold and snow for a train?
Back in the day I can see a use for mass transportation…not every could drive or afford a car. Now everyone owns a car, no one wants to ride with criminals at night in the cold.
I wouldn’t compare Milwaukee to any other city…we export jobs and do nothing to bring in tourism. Worry about bringing people into the city, lowering taxes and crime. Sort of putting the cart before the horse.
May 4th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Yes, here in lies the problem. Pouring more and more money, investing in entitling people that don\’t care, haven\’t cared, aren\’t going to care is Doyle\’s solution.
You can\’t make people care by entitling them. You can\’t make people care by taking their money and resources to be given to people that don\’t care. Your optimistic for change is miss-guided.
Get the kids to school with lunch in hand, hold the parents, kids, and county responsible for getting the kids to school. Quit thug hugging and shut the revolving door for the thugs.
You want caring and good communities, they are not built by entitling non-participants. They are built on rewarding participants.
P.S. I think it ultimately costs everyone ~7.50 per mile to ride the bus (not including the advertising). You are not educating yourself, miss-guided by the media.
May 4th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
I’m just amused that the proposed alternative is… nothing.
Possibly because the need for action has not been demonstrated.
And yes, my point was that the existance of a train doesn’t change anything. You get on a train drunk at Miller Park, you disembark still drunk at a station at Pewaukee or Johnson Creek, and then you get in car and drive home. Problem solved!
May 4th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
This problem is simple. We have NO MONEY,NO NEED for a TRAIN and NO LEADERSHIP.
WE HAVE NO MONEY.
May 4th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
> And yes, my point was that the existance of a
> train doesn’t change anything.
Heather, I love your blog. Didn’t you just write about how annoying you found the drunken idiots tailgating next to you? What if there was another way to get to the park?
> WE HAVE NO MONEY.
Unless we need to bail out the Selig’s sorry asses. Then we’ve got a blank check.
May 5th, 2009 at 6:04 am
The cost of Miller Park - $310 million.
Cost of light rail (for the track alone) between $90 million per mile, and in the case of your Seattle example… $179 million per mile. So for the cost of Miller park, we could go anywhere from a mile and a half to three miles… After you buy the choo-choos, maintenance facilities, hire and train people to drive and repair them etc. etc. etc… Oh, and add the continued subsidies to make the fairs low enough for people to ride it.
May 5th, 2009 at 6:07 am
oh, by the way, the planned Milwaukee choo-choo doesn’t go anywhere near the people liberals claim to want to use it to help anyway. And the extra sales tax increase that has already been approved will hurt the poor disproportionately, but we know you don’t really care about that.
May 5th, 2009 at 6:55 am
Cranky is a troll. He’s gotta be. The reason is that he’s ignoring the one factual point that everyone is saying. There is not enough population density in Milwaukee (or Madison, but that’s a different beast) to make trains work.
On top of that, he’s *also* ignoring human nature. Why the hell would I want to ride a bus full of gang-bangers? I don’t find being threatened (literally…it happened the last time I took the bus) to be much fun. Why the hell would I want to have to do things on someone else’s schedule (the bus only comes at set times)? Public transportation is a stupid waste of time if you actually have a vehicle.
May 5th, 2009 at 7:08 am
@Patrick Nobody is currently proposing a light rail system for Milwaukee. Nobody. What is proposed currently is the KRM, which is heavy rail that would connect out to Kenosha and Racine.
And then there is the Mayor’s streetcar system, which is not light rail, it is a streetcar. The very high-end cost of a streetcar is $40 million a mile which includes things like curb bumps outs, utility upgrades, fancy stations, and well basically the works. Kenosha built a streetcar system at about $6 million a mile. Portland did there’s for $10 million a mile.
You can be all against it, that’s fine, but please be honest and use the correct comparables and numbers.
May 5th, 2009 at 7:53 am
RE: Dave Reid
I used Milwaukee County vs. Milwaukee from Cranky’s assertion of a population of 1 million. Since the city is >600k and the county is right around 1M, I used county numbers.
To make matters worse, since this is a 7 county affair, I could have gone with the 7 county population density numbers, but quite simply I am too lazy to do the math.
RE: Cranky
I’m just amused that the proposed alternative is… nothing.
We have the proposed solution - it is the buses. Those 6 round black things that they ride on are called tires. They allow the flexibility of the bus to go anywhere. They cost less than a choo choo too. Of course they are not the cool new iPhone 5g way of getting around town, but the people who really need/use the public transportation can get around just fine with the buses.
So why are we trying to reinvent the wheel? To be cool?
Also - please keep bringing up good examples of taxpayer subsidization like Miller Park. It just makes the Choo Choo look even more stupid.
While the economic impact of the Milwaukee Brewers may won’t consume the $10.1 million dollars per year that Miller Park cost tax payers ($310M over the 30 year lease) There is enough economic activity. Just ask the 500 or so people that work at the ball park during the season - yeah I know they are not the kind of jobs that Lena Taylor likes, but they are still good second jobs or jobs for our senior citizens, college students, and other people just in need of a check.
Consider how much beer is sold at a game and the beer tax collected on all of that beer. Don’t forget about the beer and alcohol consumed tailgating.
Players salaries- This year the MLB total payroll is around $2.75B. IIRC the way the tax laws work for professional athletes is that players pay taxes based on where the game is played. i.e. for last nights game, the state will collect income taxes on 1/162 of the Brewers payroll and 1/162 of the Pirates payroll.
The average salary in MLB is $3.67M. There are 25 players on each team for 81 home games. The state will collect income taxes on a number roughly around $91M in athlete pay. On one of those rich guys, what is the states tax rate? 15%? That would be $13M/year collected in state income taxes.
So please keep using Miller Park as an example. They only saw 3M people go through the turnstiles last year. And don’t forget about the happiness that stadiums bring - haven’t you ever played Sid Meier’s Civilization - Call to Power?
May 5th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Didn’t you just write about how annoying you found the drunken idiots tailgating next to you? What if there was another way to get to the park?
Trains don’t cure stupidity or irresponsibility.
May 5th, 2009 at 10:02 am
3 million people used Miller Park for Brewers games last year.
No where near that would use the choo choo.
The only people who want a choo choo are liberals.
If they like the idea, why don’t they write checks for it.
May 5th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Dave Reid, Mayor Barretts choo choo is light rail.
Please be honest. You can define light rail anyway you like, but the general public knows that Mayor Barretts choo choo is rail and it’s light.
Thanks Dave Reid. Be honest next time K?
May 5th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Gman,
> Cranky is a troll.
Really, I think I’m being polite and respectful Can I ask you do the same and avoid name calling?
>Why the hell would I want to ride a bus full of >gang-bangers?
It’s a cultural thing, I guess. It depends on your level of comfort at interacting with other humans. I’ll just quote myself from post 17, to make clear I haven’t ignored this point.
>In Boston, the T (subway/streetcar) has
>millionaires in business suits riding next to
>punks in torn jeans and nobody thinks anything
>of it.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Clint,
I like you, sir. Honestly, I do, because you manage to be funny and bring facts to your argument and not be rude.
I think this whole thing is winding down. We’re all shocked that everyone doesn’t see thing the way we do - that’s fine, that’s democracy with a small d and I believe in it to my core.
If buses are the answer - maybe they are, sir, maybe they are - then would you be okay with dedicated bus lanes on 94, 45, 43, and downtown roads? Even if you had to fume in traffic while buses whizzed by? Would you be okay with the enormous outlay to convert to cleaner electric or natural gas vehicles? Because that’s what it takes to make buses work as a real and useful alternative. If you want them to just hang on as something for people who are too poor for cars, then you don’t want to make them a real alternative, just a token one. That’s not what we need in this city.
I’ll leave you with this. If you don’t ride the rails you’re going to pay for a portion of it with your taxes. The riders will pay twice; one with taxes and once when they pay the fare. I think that’s reasonable.
And even though I don’t give a rat’s heiney about the Brewers or the rest of the league where only eight guys who can actually hit are in at any given time, I pay the sales tax. I subsidize Attanasio playing old man fantasy baseball with Gagne and Hoffman to a point - but I don’t pay as much as the people who go to the games. I think that’s reasonable. What’s the problem? I’ll partially subsidize the thing that’s important to you - can you do the same for me? That too is democracy, and I hope you believe in it as much as I do.
This isn’t a new argument. Public transit has been debated in many cities before. We’re not reinventing everything. Time and time again once people get a chance to experience a day without their car, they start asking why the lines don’t go further. You’ll see. It’s coming, so you’ll get a chance to experience it for yourselves.
Cranky
PS Gus - “light rail” has a technical definition, so “officially” you’re wrong. But you have a point - the difference is subtle, the cars just a little smaller - and I just want to say your posts are great, like little poems.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
How nice for Boston. Can you tell us about the “Big Dig” too Cranky.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Officially I am correct. Light rail is what light rail is. I don’t give a fiddlers fart what some industry definition is. I’m interested in the truth. It’s an old fashioned notion.
I’m glad you like my poems.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Meanwhile in Boston, thousands of professionals have flocked to New Hampshire (50 miles) to get away from repressive sales and income taxes. Even with the commute, they still come out ahead.
Then again, they haven’t learned, and elect similar people who enact similar laws to Massachusetts.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
John, the millionaires haven’t left Boston, they ride along side the torn jeans crowd. I’ve heard that the millionaires also love RAP and GRAFFITI on board the choo choo’s. I’m just sayin.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
@gus Officially you are incorrect, but I know from reading long enough you’ll never admit it so whatever.
But for everyone else light rail serves a very different purpose than a streetcar. It has larger vehicles (EL, DART, MAX), a dedicated right-of-way (generally), higher speeds, longer routes, and less stops. The costs between a light-rail system and a streetcar system are significant which by itself should indicate they are not the same thing.
To mix the two at least appears on the surface as an attempt to muddle the issue. As Patrick used numbers for a light rail system NOT a streetcar system but then compared the two, which is incorrect, and I hope an honest mistake.
I know nobody over here is going to be convinced that rail service (be it streetcar, light rail, commuter rail) in Milwaukee is a good thing but I’d hope when you talk about relevant numbers you at least compare the appropriate things to each other.
May 5th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
Cranky -
I would appreciate a HOV lane that allowed for Buses, multi-passenger vehicles, motorcycles, or any vehicle that was rated for 40mpg or higher (hybrid, NGV, or clean diesels)
The logistical problem with a HOV lane is that they need to be on the left side of the freeway. Which makes them unpractical for the Flyers since they get off at the next stop every 4 miles or so. Which means in rush hour they need to cross three lanes every few miles. Not realistic.
But - if the left lane on the new I94 North South Corridor between FIBLand and Mitchell Airport - I am all good with that.
If no parking were allowed on Wisconsin Ave and that lane were turned into a bus lane - WI Ave only, since no less than a dozen routes run WI Ave. But that means that they city would have to give up the income that comes from the meters… good luck with that.
I would also not throw a fit if new buses purchased were hybrids - as long there is a ROI on the hybrid technology that it pays for itself over the life of the bus. Shitcago has them, so they are made.
Finally - reason #2381 why buses are a better solution than trains - Breakdowns. They will happen. When a bus breaks down, another one is right behind it that the passengers can get on and they are on their way. A tow truck comes along and takes the broken down bus away.
When a train breaks down, all the trains behind it can’t go around it very easily - that whole track thing makes it difficult. And there is a severe ripple effect. Ask anyone in Shitcago about snow and breakdowns on the train. This winter on more than one occasion my Amtrak was 1 hour + behind because a Metra or an Amtrak broke down.
May 5th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Hi Dave Reid. Thanks for replying. “Officially” I am correct. You don’t dictate what is “official” and what is not “official”. Milwaukee doesn’t need any of the systems you are discussing. Dave Reid, I admire your love for choo choo’s I really do. My son likes choo choo’s too! We put one around the “Holiday tree” every year.
Officially yours,
Gus
May 5th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Clint, why would you include hybrids or 40mpg vehicles in a HOV lane?
May 5th, 2009 at 3:43 pm
The real solution is to make Milwaukee a nice place to live with caring people, neighbors and neighborhoods.
Every time all vote to tax their neighbors in the name of entitling the poor and children, they increase costs to local businesses and hence reduce the number of jobs. As the people that care move away with their jobs, what you may have left is a bunch of entitled community wreckers that can’t get their kids to school with lunch in hand, creating an excessive amount of welfare need (including foster care children), that exceeds the functioning capacity of the working people.
Then instead of proposing to hold the kids, parents, and city responsible for their choices, they propose to create even more tax burden to get people to places they don’t need to go?
May 5th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
John Smith, all the taxing and caring about the children, all the wars on poverty and billions spent on teachers retirements has gotten us no where. Naturally the left wants more money.
May 5th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Clint, why would you include hybrids or 40mpg vehicles in a HOV lane?
For the same reason that I included motorcycles. They are fuel efficient vehicles and allowing them access to a HOV lane costs the government nothing to promote and encourage the purchase and use of those vehicles.
May 5th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Clint, why would the govt. want to promote more fuel efficient cars? How is that their business?
Also, doesn’t the less fuel efficient car pay more gas tax?? Maybe the government could allow those who eat Broccoli and Asparagas a HOV lane too? And maybe if I donate to charity?
The government need to butt out of our consumer choices.
IMHO.
May 5th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Actually Gus it is very much the responsibility to promote and encourage fuel efficient vehicles (that whole energy dependency thing) and I would much rather give a soft benefit of HOV usage than $$$.
If we follow your ‘logic’ the gov’t shouldn’t even have HOV lanes. If you want to make the argument against HOV lanes in general, it can be made.
In your opinion, should motorcycles be allowed to use the HOV lanes on the on ramps like they can now? If not, why not?
May 5th, 2009 at 9:48 pm
Good points Clint. I really don’t have much of an opinion on HOV lanes at all. I’m about Liberty and less government intrusion. How much fuel I use is not the governments business, nor is how much corn I eat.
HOV stands for High Occupancy Vehicles if I am not mistaken. But that is specious in my opinion.
If 2,3 or more people are in a vehicle, people can be moved more efficiently if we allow HOV lanes. How much gas I use has no bearing on freeway congestion. My “logic” is that Government needs to but out. Following your “logic” we need energy independence and government is standing DIRECTLY in the path of that by not INSISTING that we DRILL HERE and DRILL NOW. The freeway and traffic congestion should not be subject to the politcal correctness we see today. It should be about safely and smoothly allowing people to move about.
Clint, I’ve seen you claim to be Conservative. You are not. You have fallen into the “(that whole energy dependency thing)” trap.
Have you any wool???
May 6th, 2009 at 5:33 am
Gus - you like to argue for the sake of hearing yourself claim how superior you are.
I would try and offer a different perspective - but since it is not 100% aligned with your opinion I must be a lefty in sheep’s clothing. And since discussion isn’t a word that you are familiar with…
May 6th, 2009 at 8:49 am
People commute for many reasons, but mainly because you risk life and limb actually living in Milwaukee.
They are concentrating on how to move people around, instead of getting their kids to school with lunch in hand.
They are concentrating on how to levy taxes on their neighbors, instead of reducing frivolous government.
They are concentrating entitling/rewarding the thugs, not the good citizens/communities.
Good communities, good neighbors, less crime/criminals, less entitlement = less commuting, not the opposite as the media tells us.
May 6th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Thank you Clint. You didn’t defend your point. I win.
May 6th, 2009 at 10:02 am
John Smith, you are correct. People commute for a variety of reasons. The GOVERNMENT need not know my reasons for commuting, driving or traveling. GOVERNMENT need not approve of why I choose to drive my car. It used to be known as FREEDOM or LIBERTY. Where I live and where I travel to is no ones business but mine. That used to be common sense in America.
May 6th, 2009 at 11:26 am
The media is apparently hell bent on wrecking America, they make no sense, and continue to brain wash our kids with social enslavement and entitlement.
We are not the richest country, we have more debt per family than any other as far as I can tell. Yet we continue to be told, we are rich even though the majority owe more than we are worth.
Do not follow Milwaukee’s apparent formula for demise.
P.S. Omama just took to 63 billion to be given to other countries. That’s the same size as the national transportation budget. He can do this, because Americans that have been brain washed by the media think they are rich.
May 6th, 2009 at 11:53 am
~300 million people in America
estimate 15% on Social security
estimate 15% on Disabled
estimate 15% on Welfare
estimate 1 in 4 can possibly work out the rest.
~40 million workers
11 trillion deficit/40 million = 275,000 dollars per working person.
We are a poor country, with the working few barely able to make ends meat. Why does the government feel that its ok to borrow money we don’t have and give it to other countries.
May 6th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Thank you Clint. You didn’t defend your point. I win.
Actually Gus - I did - but you are too thick headed to have realized it… thanks for proving my point.