Posted on Wednesday, 29th April 2009 by Bruce
The .40 caliber Glock Model G-22 has been a favorite of law enforcement since its introduction in 1990, largely because of its reputation as a low-maintenance, reliable service weapon.
On Saturday, April 11, Milwaukee police officer Vidal Colon was injured in the line of duty while exchanging gunfire with a suspect when his gun, the law-enforcement version of the Glock G-22, reportedly failed to eject, or “stove-piped”, causing a jam.
The malfunction led Smyrna, GA based Glock USA to replace roughly 2700 department-owned magazines thought to be the cause of the jamming issue, a widely reported occurrence among Glock owners and law enforcement personnel.
But in range tests, additional malfunctions were reported with the new magazines, as well.
Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn issued a department-wide memo on Monday, announcing a total transition within the department to a Smith and Wesson M&P .40 caliber pistol. From Flynn’s memo:
“We believed that replacing the questionable magazines would provide an adequate and timely remedy to the problem. Glock replaced 2,700 pistol magazines at no cost to MPD. During the transition to the new magazines, however, additional malfunctions were reported on the range, including failure to eject and failure to extract. Our research indicates there have been no problems with the Smith and Wesson M & P .40 caliber. The switch-out will be done at no cost to the Department.”
New MPD recruits will be the first to receive the Smith & Wessons, with the rest of the department to follow.
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26 Responses to “Milwaukee PD will no longer “rock with their Glocks out””
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April 29th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Sounds like there will be several hundred used Glock 22s coming onto the market as surplus. It would be great to own one of the pistols that has been keeping Milwaukee safe. I don’t have a .40 in my collection now.
April 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
That is my question. What will happen to the retiring Glocks? Will the be available through the local gun stores or will they be melted?
April 29th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
My question is, what has happened to Glock quality these days? The MPD has been using the Glock as its service weapon for at least 15 years. The only time mine ever had a malfunction was when one was “created” at the range for training purposes. I guess it is back to Smith and Wesson, as that was what was issued to me as a service revolver many moons ago. (Yes, I did mean revolver, as in “six gun” or “wheel gun”)
April 29th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
I believe it was 1989 when I was issued a 9mm Sig Sauer and sometime later when I was issued my Glock. As Roscoe said, the only time I ever experienced any kind of malfunction was when we created a “malfunction” for training purposes. I do recall our initial transition training to include instructions on proper grip. Essentially that means not holding the weapon with a limp wrist and not holding it on its side like some kind of gangster in a “B” movie or television program. It might look cool, but it will contribute to a malfunction. Without benefit of first hand knowledge, it is possible that is what contributed to the malfunction experienced by Officer Colon as my understanding is that he was hit, knocked down and firing from a position on the ground which might have interfered with the proper grip and positioning of the weapon. (Do not confuse what I just wrote with some kind of criticism of Officer Colon. As in every Officer involved shooting, his experience should be critiqued and training should be adapted accordingly so that other Officers learn from it - to include shooting from other than an upright position.)
April 29th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Here is another good question?
Why Semi-Autos and not the wheel guns? Are MPD officers involved in so many shootings that they need a 15+1 clip vs. the 6 in the bbl?
FWIR it was near impossible for a wheel gun to jam.
April 29th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
My bro, a MPD LEO, thinks its mostly a magazine maintenance issue. No one really maintains the mags well, the lips get a bit of gunk or bent just a bit. Proper maintenance and replacement of mags over time and it wouldn’t be an issue.
Personally I’d have like to see them go with some Springfield XD’s, but that may be just the fanboy in me..
April 29th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Clint,
It’s actually very easy for a wheel gun to jam. One good drop and you have some stuck wheels. And tactical reloads with wheel gun speedloaders just don’t compare to a magazine. Are many officers involved in a many shootings requiring more then 6 rounds? No, but their job is to be prepared as they can reasonably be for those situations.
April 29th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Interesting. This would be the first large-PD turn from Glock to S&W that I’ve heard of.
April 29th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
One more thing that just came to mind after reading janir’s comment about the magazines. We were always trained to drop the magazine from the weapon when reloading rather than catch it. It was thought that catching the magazine just added to the reload time, although there is a procedure that I believe is called a “combat reload” whereby you can reload quickly without dropping the magazine from the magazine well. I remember discussion during training about how dropping the magazine to the ground could damage it. This may be another contributing factor to the problem.
April 29th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Something doesn’t add up. I’ve carried a Glock as either a primary or a back-up duty weapon since 1989 and personally, have never had a stove-pipe malfunction. However, I have seen them happen on weapons that are filthy beyond belief! I will give my disclaimer here, I’m also a Glock armorer as well.
Other than the “limp wristing” that Glenn described and poor maintenance I can’t see how a magazine affects a malfunction that occurs during the extraction/ejection cycle.
Needing an excuse to send business to a Mass. gun maker perhaps?
April 29th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
I’m surprised they didn’t look at the H&K. Great primary weapon. Of course I understand going with an American Company.
If anyone hears of these hitting the market for a good price please let us know on this site
April 29th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
To answer some of the questions:
The new S&Ws are being supplied at no cost, so there is no “business” being thrown @ S&W.
Milwaukee is getting the same deal as numerous other large depts. across the country. I don’t have specific data on this, but it appears to be part of an aggressive campaign to seize market share. Don’t know if those other depts switched from Glock however.
I’ve had a Glock for over 16 years with around 18,000 rounds fired through it. Only had one malfunction about 13 years ago when I had a faulty magazine that did not feed properly. Never had a problem with the gun itself. I even attended a week long school where I shot 22-2300 rounds without cleaning the gun once. No problems…so I don’t have anything bad to say about them.
In the past, MPD has sent its used guns to Streicher’s at 124th & Hampton to be sold if the officer who carried it didn’t buy it first.
April 29th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
As always, thank you, Mr. Melnick.
April 29th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
The issues with the G22 pistol are with the new frame style. The frame is the lower half (plastic) part of the pistol. The MPD pistols purchased in 1992 are not having problems according to anecdotal knowledge and what is listed in the issued memos.
An attempt to upgrade the whole department from the older pistols to the new frame style that allows a flashlight to be mounted on the forward section of the frame was started over a year ago. That’s when these malfunctions began to appear here. About 45% of the department pistols had been changed over. Despite some well intentioned troubleshooting at the range, these malfunctions were happening nationwide. These malfunctions are talked about extensively on a Law Enforcement forum here:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=63496&an=0&page=0#63496
In other cities it was first blamed on the flashlights attached to the pistol. Then the bullet weight or brand of the ammo. Then the weak-wristed shooter. In reality, it appears to be an engineering problem in the design of the new frames.
It appears that Glock was not as forthcoming as they could have been about a nationwide problem.
The only way to fix this for the whole department was to choose a new service pistol. There are about six different good service pistols from quality firearms companies currently on the market.
Chief Flynn made the right decision and picked one. It probably helped that S&W was already working with the department on the patrol rifle deal. Sometimes fate has a hand in solutions to a problem.
I, too started with a revolver, and sometimes wish for simpler times. But this ain’t Mayberry no more.
Thanks Chief!
April 29th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
Glenn, my Federal Agent brother carries a Sig Sauer 9 as his side are and Colt 45 SMG,,,,, submachine gun in his coat. (because of the nature of his protection detail as you know). My Sheriffs Deputy bro carries a composite Glock 9.
When I was in the market, both told me to buy a .38, 44, or 57 revolver. My use/need for the weapon ostensibly, is to blow the brains out of the Democrat voter or “blue” criminal that would be so unfortunate as to enter my home uninvited. Their reasoning was that I didn’t want a dirty magazine or jamming issue and that I wanted stopping power as the “blue” criminal needed to leave my premises at room temperature if at all possible. That is especially prescient given our TRIAL LAWYERS wet kiss of this week. When the younger bro was an Air Force officer, he carried a chrome Glock 9 as a side arm occasionally due to the nature of his responsibilities and post.
I used to admire the 2 of them when we’d get together. They’d oil, clean, and baby their service weapons and we’d go shooting. You should have seen the techniques they used to keep their shoes as shiny as wedding rentals.
I shot at Quantico last July and that Sig 9 is an awesome side arm. I’ve never shot a 9 that was so accurate.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Andy, Glock has been the “in brand” for 9mm service weapons for quite a number of years. It is to Cop side arms, what Reebok is to NFL Jerseys. When problems arise, the manufacturer isn’t going to quickly choke the Golden Goose, but they should. The stakes are way way to high.
I’ve shot alot of brands during the last year. When using a rental or a friends well maintained weapon (mostly 9′s), I’ve found very little to differentiate one brand from another. Except for Sig Sauer. I’m by no means an expert, but the Sig just felt better and is (in my experience) accurate as hell. I don’t know why. If my take or experience is correct……PRICE…can become an issue. All things being equal. Price is important. Military competition marksmen from numerous countries overwhelmingly choose Beretta as the close in 9mm of choice. Glock is reasonably priced and it has the “brand” that is known.
Many of my friends have found Springfield-Arms to be an excellent option. 9mm and 40′s.
April 29th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
stovepiping is possible in any semi auto. I have never seen it caused by anything other than limp wristing though.
Glocks seem as dependable as any other semi auto out there. I don’t care for the trigger on them. However, I am much less than entusiastic about the M&P.
April 30th, 2009 at 10:07 am
gus, I’ve never seen a chrome glock. Do you have a picture?
April 30th, 2009 at 10:12 am
Martin this isn’t just an excuse to send business to a Mass. gun maker. I’ve carried a Glock since 2000. I have total faith that my gun will fire when needed and I have never had a jam. Since 2007 the recruits and officers issued new glocks cannot say the same. There was definitely a problem with these new glocks and many officers including myself have lost our sense of dependability in these new glocks. Something changed in their manufacturing process that made them less than reliable. I applaud the Chief on this issue and am glad he is taking action. I didn’t used to be a fan of S&W, but the new M&P 40 looks good. I can’t find any complaints about it. It wasn’t a magazine problem, it was a gun problem. It’s just too bad Glock wouldn’t admit the problem and actually fix it. If I owned any stock in Glock I would definitely sell. Milwaukee won’t be the only and last department to dump them.
May 1st, 2009 at 7:29 am
I probably should have prefaced my comment about the Chief and the S&W replacements as “Tounge-in-cheek”.
I admit it, I am very biased towards Glocks. Years ago it was the “Exploding” Glocks which in some cases turned out to be guys firing overly “Hot” reloads and now this. I don’t see any way a magazine defect could cause a stove-pipe. I can see a dirty firing chamber or an improperly sized firing chamber, bad or underloaded ammo, or a defective extractor causing this.
I give a lot of kudos to Chief Flynn for acting very quickly and replacing them immediately. Some other Departments would wait years or not at all if this problem ever came up.
I disliked S&W when they were owned by a British Co. they were to eager to please then President Clinton by conforming to his magazine restrictions etc. in order to get Federal contracts. They also introducted a piss-poor copy of the Glock that was known as the Sigma. My only concern with the Smith M&P for the Milw. PD is that they have a mechanism that prevents the pistol from firing if the magazine is not seated correctly. It’s one of those “Good thing, Bad thing” qualities they they have and hoefully will train the Officers to adjust to this.
May 1st, 2009 at 8:34 am
There is NO SUCH THING as “no-cost” transaction.
S&W will take possession of all the MPD Glock sidearms and sell them to a dealer.
In effect, S&W will get XXX dollars for each S&W it sends to MPD-but they’ll get it on the ‘back-end’ of the transaction.
May 2nd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I wasn’t aware that Glock had changed the design of the frame. I also remember that Glocks were referred to as “monkey” guns because they held up to abuse and could function when dirty. In large departments those characteristics were important as some officers did not properly care for their equipment. That is why the Glocks became popular. I remember ads where Glocks were dropped from the roof of a building, placed in sand, placed in water, picked up or out, and would still be able to fire off a magazine of ammunition. I hope that the new service weapon for the MPD has those characteristics as well because unless things have changed drastically, finely crafted equipment will suffer due to the lack of care of some officers.
May 3rd, 2009 at 5:53 am
Well, hope you have better luck with the M&P than the LA Sheriff’s Department did:
Sheriffs department broadcast announcement
training bureau weapons training
to: All sworn personnel
subject: Officer safety alert - smith & wesson m&p pistols
recent developments have forced a departmental re-evaluation of the smith & wesson 9mm m&p semi-automatic pistol as an authorized optional handgun for sworn personnel.
Effective immediately, the smith & wesson 9mm m&p full size pistol is no longer an authorized optional on-duty pistol.
Effective immediately, the smith & wesson 9mm m&p compact pistol is no longer an authorized optional off-duty pistol.
Since first approval as an optional pistol on december 10, 2008, the full-sized and/or compact versions of the 9mm smith & wesson m&p pistol have been deployed by 49 sworn personnel on and off duty. One of these pistols was delivered new with an improperly machined barrel that would not eject spent cartridge casings. Another of these pistols experienced a barrel failure in mid-april of this year. After firing less than 10,000 rounds of training ammunition. This pistol barrel broke into two pieces just ahead of the firing chamber.
additionally, a significant number of deputy academy class #377 recruits with issued new smith & wesson 9mm m&p full-size pistols have experienced phase-2 pistol malfunctions, caused by spent casings failing to extract from barrel chambers, during the past two weeks of training. Class #377 recruits will be issued beretta 92fs pistols on wednesday april 29, 2009, and their m&p pistols removed from service.
Personnel safety and reliable equipment remain our primary concerns.
Direct any questions to lieutenant michael c. Reynolds [email protected] or sergeant david nell [email protected] at the b.c. Range.
Leroy d. Baca, sheriff kbl/sndg
May 4th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
[...] another agency drops Glock for M&P… Badger Blogger Blog Archive Milwaukee PD will no longer “rock with their Glocks out” text from article… The .40 caliber Glock Model G-22 has been a favorite of law enforcement [...]
May 9th, 2009 at 2:10 am
Glock has had issues in the past (and they worked hard to bury them). NYPD had to have 26,000 19′s fixed for failure to feed issues in 1996. In 2007 the Illinois State Police returned 1,500 Glocks for similar reasons.
In the department I serve we have at least 30 Glock 22′s with broken extractors. Take a look at this link and read more about Glock problems http://www.thegunzone.com (search the Glock section).
S&W M&P’s are now serving in over 331 LE Departments and Agencies, even the DEA (Glock worshippers) have just adopted it. And as for the LA Sheriff’s issues with the M&P let’s see what the whole story is before we can make a judgment.
Realize this, a pistol is a machine, a tool-sometimes you’ll get one that will break—I like and own two M&P’s—I like the fact that they are made in the USA.
May 9th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
While i like Glock pistols, have carried one for years, I dont like the way they dont fess up to problems, this could and will cause a cops life, and should be stopped……Other companies issue recalls, Glock does not..