Posted on Thursday, 11th February 2010 by Patrick Dorwin
Original posting: 2/6/10
I have a question for Milwaukee police officers, and any LEO’s in general. Now that Milwaukee has gone with its “new” OpenSky radio system, how is it working for the coppers on the street? Do you feel safe with this system that, now that it seems to be working, is already outdated? Have the “dead spot” problems been cleared up?
How about officers & deputies in neighboring communities, I understand that they can no longer communicate with MPD, or monitor actions that may cross community lines, does that cause you a problem?
This radio system, for those that haven’t been following the story, is a digital trunked system that was supposed to be on line six years ago, but has never worked properly, even though more than $15 million has been spent to improve the system enough to use. This has also rendered all police scanners useless for following the Milwaukee Police Department.
Last year, New York canceled a $2 billion contract for an OpenSky system that had so many problems that they decided to cut their losses rather than continue to push a failed system.
Comments?
Post updated in the comments section. includes reaction from Chief Flynn & a radio interview with the captain in charge of communications.
Posted in Home, Open Sky Radios | Comments (75) |
75 Responses to “Question for Milwaukee Police Officers — OpenSky”
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February 7th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
It’s terrible. There are dead spots all over the place, no matter how many “repeaters” or “boosters” they put up. No matter what, you cannot get on the air when someone else has there mic open (whether they are talking or by accident). Its a huge safety issue, and a cop is going to get hurt because of it. I personally have been in a few situations where the air was needed immediately. I was in a foot pursuit for 30 seconds before my partner was able to get on the air because someone is talking. That is a long time when you are chasing somebody. Another time was when my partner and I observed two guys getting into a stolen car, couldnt get on the air, by the time we did, we were already chasing them. Other times, when the air is supposedly “open”, when you try to say something the system just rejects it for no reason and you have to start all over again. Think about what whould happen if an officer is fighting someone, and may have only one shot at getting a broadcast for backup. He/she can’t do it if someone is talking, and odds are pretty good that the transmission could just get rejected by one of the many annoying and loud audible tones that the radio spits out. One of the key alleged “features” of this system to get around that issue, was the “emergency button” on the radio. You are supposed to be able to press it, and it would override whoever is on the air and give you 10 secs or so of air time. Well that “feature” was malfunctioning so bad by going off every 5 mins (not exaggerating), the powers that be were forced to disable it. Oh and that emergency button also sets off a series of loud beeps on everyone else radio, which was making it so annoying. So we don’t even have that “feature” for safety. The radio is also supposed to do a bunch of other crap, like you can make phone calls from it and stuff, but that’s disabled too. Another problem with the system is the quality, since we’ve switched to these radios, the dispatchers are constantly having to reconfirm information with officers, which is extremely annoying. There were several instances a while back, where the dispatchers just could not hear the officers, even though the officers could hear each other. So the dispatchers had to resort to using hand held radios up in communications, which slowed down everything. I think this system is only in place because so much money was initially invested in it, they figured well we have to make this work to justify it. The system is shit, and is going to get an officer hurt or killed because of it. And there will be lawsuits, guaranteed.
February 7th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
I missed this news report from just a month ago here in Milwaukee.
February 7th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Crimefighter, and other MPD visitors to this site: I truly feel for you. If this system is as bad as it seems at first glance, this really stinks. All the other crap you good men and women have to deal with in the course of a day in a city as dysfunctional as Milwaukee, and now you have to deal with a flawed communications network? This isn’t cool. And it sounds like it’s just a matter of time before somebody’s left in a serious distress situation because of it.
February 7th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Crimefighter, anything coming down from the mountain as to what steps are being taken to “fix” these problems?
February 7th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
I am just a scanner guy, but have heard a lot of scary moments with officers using the OpenSky radios. Foot pursuits or calling for assist and nobody can understand them, or voice drops out like on that old cellphone commercial, and cop will have to repeat several times. It almost seems like the radios don’t work too good if cop is running or moving to fast like when fighting with suspect. Then there are the shooting scenes where first on scene officer is trying to give suspect or victim injury info and again has to repeat a lot or was never heard.
Scariest thing to hear is officer in foot pursuit and they stop transmitting or you just hear some digital garble.
I also heard these new radios have the same amount of channels that the old ones had, that makes no sense at all. One of the reasons they wanted this system was because they needed more channels. Suburban departments on the Milwaukee County Trunked Radio System have 5 or more channels just for them, and 90% of the time they only use one of them. Even West Milwaukee PD has 5 channels.
February 7th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
The Open(pie in the) Sky radio system has had problems and cost overruns in every jurisdiction it’s been tried. Most agencies have to simulcast on their existing systems.
I don’t know if this was Nannette’s pipe dream or not but she should have cancelled it. Flynn complained about radio consoles being no good and out of warranty at last years budget hearing.
Last year, there was the news that our Predator unmanned drones were being monitored by the Taliban. There was no encryption added because the “handshake” between the controller and drone would greatly limit the effective range of the aircraft. That’s part of the problem with Open Sky.
There is no reason to my knowledge that the City couldn’t work out an agreement with Milwaukee County to use their radio system. As noted above, the suburbs use this and this would allow interoperability with other jurisdictions.
Open Sky is just another example of money being wasted by DHS and the brains that run this city.
Good luck to all of you who depend on this system. Make sure you carry a good cell phone.
February 7th, 2010 at 8:05 pm
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Just in case anyone needs to know…
February 7th, 2010 at 8:26 pm
Milwaukee PD could of got on the Milwaukee County Radio System with the Sheriff & Suburban Departments, and saved taxpayers Millions since the County system was up and running already & actually works great. Pretty much all MPD would of had to do is buy radios.
What does the Radio Systems Administrator for Milwaukee County have to say about what I mentioned?
“You are absolutely right. Oh, and I have a copy in my office of the actual letter that Sheriff Clarke sent to Chief Jones inviting him to come on our radio system! No one’s going to tell me otherwise”
February 7th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
Thank you, Arthur Jones.
Thank you, Nanette Hegerty.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:40 am
All of the above descriptions of the difficulties with the Open Sky system are correct. No embellishment needed. The sound quality is beyond terrible, and there are many dead spots.
We keep receiving assurances that all of the defects will be fixed very soon. But that message has been given for many, many months.
I’m afraid nothing will be done until someone is killed or seriously injured. Until then we just deal with it. The public has to decide if it is important that police officers have the capability to instantly communicate with each other. Or we could go back to using call boxes? Cops can bitch all they want, but that won’t change things.
Placing blame in the past is pointless. No one at an Executive Level is ever held accountable for failures in leadership or imcompetence.
It’s all very annoying at this point.
February 8th, 2010 at 12:41 am
Little Artie and Hegerty are both truly epic FAILs.
February 8th, 2010 at 1:07 am
The first message here about Milwaukee OpenSky is very interesting http://tinyurl.com/yjpr4o5
February 8th, 2010 at 3:19 am
To echo what others are saying, the powers that be have been saying for over 6, 7, 8 months now that they are working on the problem, that the issues will be addressed, etc, etc, and absolutely nothing has changed as far as i can tell. all of the issues that existed in summer when they first burdened us with these radios are still existing today. At first they blamed the problems on the analog and digital systems running at the same time, and that the quality would improve when we switched to all digital. well supposedly we went all digital in october or november, and all of the same issues are there.
February 8th, 2010 at 6:41 am
I did quite a bit of searching yesterday and couldn’t find anywhere that the system was up and running as promised. You guys on the street are being hung out there for an experiment in my opinion.
Where’s the media? Aren’t they supposed to be the watchdog?
February 8th, 2010 at 8:44 am
The forum post linked above by “mkescan” in comment #13 is enlightening. Milwaukee’s implementation of OpenSky has a bit of a “Midwest Fiber Networks” feel to it.
From the little bit of Googling I did on this, it seems like departments using this system are happier with the next generation Harris radios than they were with the earlier technology.
So, which generation of technology is Milwaukee using?
February 8th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
This system sucks. Every night I work it’s like listening to people talk under water! You can’t hear them, they can’t hear you either. Half the time you key the microphone to talk and get an error tone (beep) and that lets you know you can’t talk. About two dozen or so portable radios are broken at my district and word is they can’t get the parts to fix them as the company who made some of the parts is out of business. The city needs to get out now. Cut it’s losses and get us Motorola back. Over the years I have had the Motorola radio and it even worked after a cup of hot coffee got dumped on the one in the car. A co-worker took a swim (to grab a body) in the Jackson Park Lagoon some years back and his portable radio worked fine. If you go into school buildings, a hospital, parking structure, or the basement of any house you cannot use your OpenSky radio. It just does not work. I have called to complain to my alderman but so far no results. I told my wife to sue if I get killed.
February 8th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
From what I heard the system is over loaded already and Milwaukee has no more frequencies they could add to it. Also I guess the vendor was so sure the audio problems would go away if they took the OpenSky / Motorola patch down.
They took that patch down last Tuesday, and from what I read here it sounds like it didn’t help anything. I am betting Chief Flynn is pretty ticked off right now, and will let everyone know how ticked off he is soon.
February 8th, 2010 at 9:25 pm
I guess the “real” media’s going to sit on the sidelines on this one, and wait until MPD puts out a press release. Then they can do what they do best:
Copypasta.
February 9th, 2010 at 12:35 am
OpenSky sucks. It has failed to deliver on its promise anywhere it’s been implemented. They have a real problem fixing multiple channels together for important informational broadcasts (suspect descriptions, info on wanted suspects, officer safety alerts, etc). When they tie the channels together the broadcast quality is virtually non-existent.
BUT HERE’S THE BIGGY, FOLKS…only one radio can transmit on a particular channel at a given time…so if someone is blabbing while an officer in need of help tries to request it, the officer in peril has to wait until the channel clears or he/she would have to change channels in hope of finding an open one. Not an easy task if you’re fighting for your life. This was not a problem under the previous analog system using Motorola hardware.
There are some neat features with this new technology, but if they can’t get the basics right…the rest is just bullshit window dressing.
I don’t know what generation or version MPD is using. All I know is that most of the hardware was shipped to MPD in mid-2005 and was sitting on pallets at the old District 3 station until they started putting the stuff on the street in late ’08.
For the longest time, they said the sound quality issues were negatively effected when splitting the signal across both the new digital and existing analog systems; a necessity until everyone transitioned to using the same equipment. But the last of the old analogs have been off the street for a while now…and it still sucks. I used Skype to talk to some family when they were in Turkey a couple months ago and the quality was better…and Skype is a free service!!
Flynn doesn’t deserve the blame on this. He had the shit left on his desk when he took over and he’s been fighting to make it work. Unless the City is willing to end it’s addiction to giving money to shady real estate developers or other useless endeavors, there won’t be money to replace this system.
I don’t know if Hegerty deserves blame either. I think the decision to purchase was made under Art Jones…but I’m not 100% on that. I’ve also heard that one officer in particular was deeply involved in the evaluation process, influenced the decision to go with OpenSky and now works for them after retiring from the MPD. Any MPD folks out there that can back me or correct me on this?
February 9th, 2010 at 9:17 am
There was a joint announcement made by Barrett, Kohl and then Rep. Kleczka to “upgrade” the MPD radio system back on October 2, 2002. There WAS a document I had found on Wispolitics about this which has since been moved or disappeared.
“From antiquated equipment to a shortage of spare parts, the Milwaukee Police Department currently lacks a state-of-the-art communications infrastructure that can coordinate citywide, interdepartmental responses to emergencies,” said Barrett. “This grant will result in major strides for Milwaukee’s communications system, and greater protection for the people of our community”
At the time that was a $3 mil grant via a FY2002 appropriation from the Crime Identification Technology Act…..
So…you could say this happened on Jones’ watch….
February 9th, 2010 at 9:25 am
Now the real question is….was Jones pressured from above to get the job done for political reasons so that the politicians could claim a Homeland Security project success?
February 9th, 2010 at 10:16 am
Jones pressured?
Arthur L. Jones feels pressure from nobody, except his bitches.
February 9th, 2010 at 10:54 am
This absolutely began when Arthur Jones was Police Chief, however Nan Hegerty (remember the Kohl/Clinton politically appointed U.S. Marshal for the eastrn District of Wisconsin and subsequent politically appointed - most likely with Kohl’s help - to the MPD top job in 2003) could have exercised some initiative to stop this boondoggle when she had the opportunity.
February 9th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
It’s sad that the safety of law enforcement officers is being compromised because the city can’t make the right decision and dump this system.
I’m surprised that the police union hasn’t made the public more aware of the problem and put more pressure on the city to fix it ASAP. Unions traditionally not only looked out for their members financial well-being, but their safety as well. It’s no bargain to get a raise if you get killed in the line of duty.
February 9th, 2010 at 2:53 pm
I think we can all agree that the City did no research. Not sure if this is true or not but, I heard the city didn’t even hire a consultant.
February 9th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Perhaps if Nan would have spent less time promoting a pink agenda and more time making sure her officers weren’t getting stuck with technology that didn’t work (among them, radios), Milwaukee wouldn’t be stuck with this.
February 9th, 2010 at 9:01 pm
I am glad to see that this issue is starting to be noticed by others, WTMJ’s John Jagler noticed the silent scanners and did a little searching and noticed this post and the comments by the officers that are actually working with OpenSky.
Let’s hope that this little conversation that started on Twitter with mkescan, peterepublic, ChrisFromRacine and myself can actually do some good… Before it’s too late.
February 10th, 2010 at 12:01 am
Social comments and analytics for this post…
This post was mentioned on Twitter by BadgerBlogger: @mkescan Might get some interesting comments. http://badgerblogger.com/?p=15509...
February 10th, 2010 at 1:29 am
May 31, 2002 somebody in a scanning group copy & pasted the press release that Peter mentioned.
Washington, D.C. — U.S. Senator Herb Kohl and
Congressmen Jerry Kleczka and Tom Barrett announced today that the House of Representatives approved $3 million in funding for the City of Milwaukee to purchase updated communications infrastructure equipment for its police, fire, and public works departments. The money is included in an annual appropriations bill that funds the Departments of Commerce, Justice and State in the fiscal year 2002 that passed the House today by vote of 411 to 15.
The funding will help the city acquire a new digital radio system that allows inter-department
communications, encrypted transmissions,and
high-speed data transport capabilities.
The technology in the new equipment will provide access to maps and suspect databases by all units carrying the new system. In addition, multiple channels will be available, allowing small groups of respondents to utilize their own channel, rather than relying on a single communications channel in use by all city units.
Also found this from Oct 6, 2001
The Finance and Personnel Committee was talking about a “Trunked Radio Communications Study”
in next year’s budget.
$300,000 for a Study and $2.5 Million requested 2002 budget for a trunked radio system. “Funds allocated for the Trunked Radio Communications Project may not be expended without Common Council approval,including the $8 million in anticipated Grant & Aid”
The system would serve other city departments in addition to the police department.
February 10th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Maybe someone should go to 112th & Green Tree to ask AJ what his side of the story is, or to Colgate to ask Mrs. Hegerty what her side of the story is.
Oh, wait… we don’t have a real media worth anything here.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:52 am
WTMJ’s John Jagler has posted an update to his blog….
http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/johnjagler/83878402.html
February 11th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
MPD spokesperson Annie Schwartz has passed along a copy of Chief Flynn’s memo to the officers on this issue, and asked that I add it to our discussion here. You can read it in its entirety here:
02.10.10 radio communications system
And as Pete had pointed out, WTMJ’s morning crew is also on this story and interviewed MPD communications Captain Andra Williams.
February 11th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
[...] [...]
February 11th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
[...] [...]
February 11th, 2010 at 4:06 pm
Kenosha Police went Digital with no problems or complaints. You can still monitor them on scanner too.
Washington County is testing a new county wide Digital Trunked Radio System for their Fire & Law Enforcement, No users on system yet but they are suppose to be migrating over soon. So far testing is going great. Signal is so strong I can hear their control channel (154.9875) way down South on Milwaukee / Oak Creek border. Also the system can be heard on a scanner.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:19 pm
No doubt Flynn was handed a soup sandwich on this. It should have been cancelled by Hegerty.
Getting a concession on the consoles, good, it still won’t work. Spend money on new handhelds, how much will that and this consultant cost?
This system is a lemon. A proven county wide system exists and still these stubborn a@@holes won’t concede that they made a mistake. NYC blew 2 billion dollars and they shitcanned it.
Transition to a digital system is mandatory, but transition to Open Sky is not.
February 11th, 2010 at 7:56 pm
Fox6 has a report on this story, you can read the web version here. I got a note earlier in the day from Ted Perry that they were doing a story on the 6PM news, but I didn’t see the note until it was too late. I’ll check the website later to see if they posted the video coverage. If anyone saw the broadcast, feel free to comment.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:12 pm
Nice to see this finally getting some attention. Kudos to John Jagler for giving our post some legs.
February 11th, 2010 at 9:17 pm
Just got word from Ted Perry, they are rebroadcasting the segment at 9 & 10 too.
February 11th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
From mkescan’s comment (#29):
The funding will help the city acquire a new digital radio system that allows inter-department
communications, encrypted transmissions,and
high-speed data transport capabilities.
The technology in the new equipment will provide access to maps and suspect databases by all units carrying the new system. In addition, multiple channels will be available, allowing small groups of respondents to utilize their own channel, rather than relying on a single communications channel in use by all city units.
As I said earlier…this system allegedly has some neat features to it. Sadly, none of those highlighted in that 2002 press release are in use today. Currently, there are still only 16 channels in use by the MPD, not the multiple additional channels promised. There was even a memo put out a few months back that during declared snow emergencies, one of MPD’s channels would be restricted for snow plow use. HOW IS THIS AN IMPROVEMENT?
Maybe these advanced, new features are on the way…but they’re still ironing out the basics. Communication Captain Andra Williams’ casual dismissal of officers’ concerns is a spit in their face. It always amazes me when some (not all) high-ranking police commanders can have such little regard for the people out there getting it done every day.
Is this the low priority we can expect a Governor Tom Barrett to give law enforcement in this State? He may have been right for helping to get the seed money for this project, but now that it clearly has been implemented badly…what leadership will Mayor Barrett show in solving this problem and giving his officers the support they deserve?
Well Mr. Mayor? Or is it more important to throw money at real estate developers to add more condos to Milwaukee’s already bloated market? Or to trains that no one will ride?
February 12th, 2010 at 12:10 am
Roland, you wrote…
…only one radio can transmit on a particular channel at a given time..
Are you certain of this? I ask because that would not be the definition of a “trunked” system. Trunking is multiple data sets moving simultaneously on single channel (or signal).
Just from reading the complaints here, a wild guess would be the BS (ahem) system is woefully shy of transmitter power and/or having massive data collision problems. Or just plain dumb-ass poor control programs.
Another question to ask: why would (how could) anyone authorize a system with an inherent delay in the transmit/receive cycle?
(You foot soldiers out there have my sympathy and concern.)
February 12th, 2010 at 12:41 am
Yes, I wrote that MjM…any MPD copper will tell you that if one person is broadcasting on a given channel, keying the mic on that same channel will do nothing but cause your radio to chirp back at you indicating that you must wait. No one but the dispatcher or certain authorized supervisors can override or transmit at the same time. Therefore, if someone is long-winded in their transmission or if someone else simply is faster at hitting the button, someone with emergency traffic can do nothing but wait…or try and find a different channel that is open…but then, assuming you could find an open channel, you would likely be talking to officers in a different geographic area. Not an appealing alternative.
Perhaps this system is capable of avoiding this problem. If that’s the case, that’s worse as it would mean they are intentionally setting the system up in an unsafe manner. All I know is that only one officer can transmit on a channel at a given time…that’s the reality right now.
With the previous analog system, if someone were transmitting a suspect description for example, and another officer keyed their mic to shout their squad number and the 10-code for help (10-17 or 10-33), everyone on the channel would hear it. Situations where high priority or emergency traffic cutting in on more routine stuff was actually fairly common. As you can imagine, in this respect, the analog system was much safer.
As for the “dead spots” issue…that should be addressed, but that is not a problem exclusive to Open Sky and could be resolved by proper placement of enough repeaters.
February 12th, 2010 at 1:09 am
MjM, I think Roland was saying on the old radios if you were calling for an assist or in pursuit you could talk over someone else and everyone would hear that a officer needs the air right away. But you can’t do that with the new radios.
Another big thing media and nobody else is talking about is, this radio system is suppose be for Fire & DPW too. Will the Fire Dept be at a major crash and not be heard when they need more Med units or the engine on scene of a house fire not heard when reporting “flames showing give me a full assignment” If the PD still only has 16 channels then I am guessing the system must be over loaded already. So they payed 15 million so far so the PD can have the same amount of channels the old system had and a smaller coverage area too? See how many Channels the PD has when the Fire Dept switches over.
I think I am moving across the street to Oak Creek.
February 12th, 2010 at 1:14 am
Sorry Roland, I didn’t see your reply before I sent mine.
February 12th, 2010 at 2:14 am
No problem…
February 12th, 2010 at 4:21 am
[...] [...]
February 12th, 2010 at 10:23 am
“Communication Captain Andra Williams’ casual dismissal of officers’ concerns is a spit in their face. It always amazes me when some (not all) high-ranking police commanders can have such little regard for the people out there getting it done every day.”
Nobody should be surprised by this reaction. Nobody.
February 12th, 2010 at 11:41 am
As I said on Twitter yesterday, I am glad to see the news coverage, but I hope they have the good sense to stay on this story and not get caught up in “the company line” from the higher-ups in MPD, they need to talk to the real coppers on the street that are dealing with these problems in real life. What I hear from the Chief is all well and good, but the story I hear from the officers here is not quite the same… it’s actually scary.
February 12th, 2010 at 2:39 pm
The statement in the chief’s memo about having a ‘mandate’ to go digital by 2013, isn’t true. correct me if i’m wrong the “mandate” is for agencies to switch frequencies, and that can be analog OR digital.
P.S. The radios are still garbage.
February 12th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
I am guessing nobody including Chief Flynn picked up the phone and called the FCC, or other Law Enforcement agencies to see what they are doing.
All the Feds said is that you must go to narrowband and if you wanted federal money what ever you buy must be P25 capable.
They did not say you had to use P25 or any other digital protocol or trunking or encryption.
City of Greenfield has a Digital capable trunked radio system, but they have it im analog mode.
Call Sheboygan County and ask why they didn’t switch over to Digital last summer when they rebanded their Trunked Radio system and everyone got new digital capable radios.
Check the Q & A here
http://www.apcointl.com/frequency/documents/NarrowbandOrder.html
More info
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/technology/communication/fcc-narrowbanding.htm
February 12th, 2010 at 6:49 pm
(Roland, am I losing my mind - more than usual - or did you correct my ‘Bruce’ mistake after your initial response? I stopped in for a second this morn…)
Yes, I understand the analog crosstalk thing; like Houston TX mixed in with 1130WISN after sunset, analogs decipher anything spit into the air on a given frequency. But a digital trunk system is supposed to allow the same thing once an open frequency is picked by the control, sent to all the radios, and the radios auto-set to that frequency.
Which would mean that if this… No one but the dispatcher or certain authorized supervisors can override or transmit at the same time. is occurring someone set the damn thing up wrong.
otoh, if officers are waiting after initial keying something could be wrong with the system’s frequency (or packet) sniffer.
Whatever, the whole thing seems like overkill for a city the size of MKE.
@mkescan
In theory (doncha love that phrase) the PD, FD, and DPW would be distinct groups that simply share the frequencies. The PD wouldn’t hear the DPW and vice-versa since their radios would have different IDs.
One other thing. I don’t claim to be an expert on OpenSky or how it is designed. My comments are based on general knowledge. As such, they might not be doing actual frequency hopping, and I’m guessing they are not. Since digital transmission can carry just gobs of data, it may be a sub-channel/packet identifier system. Think digital TV. When you see channel 12.1, 12.2, 12.3, etc., that is not indicative of separate frequencies. So, 12 = “Channel” in regards to these new-fangled OpenSky and frequency is the .1, .2, .3.
Or, I could be wrong.
February 12th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
MjM, Yep I know about the talkgroup ID’s and how Cops wouldn’t hear or share a talkgroup with DPW & Fire. What I mean is maybe the reason PD radios still only have 16 channels to use just like they had on the old radios is because the system might be overloaded or close to it already, and they don’t want cops talking on a bunch of other side channels making it even more overloaded.If that is the reason, who knows what might happen when the FD switches over. Have 2 or 3 PD districts sharing the same channel again, like back when they only had 3 Dispatch channels, and the cop fighting with somebody has to wait even longer for their radio to let them transmit
February 13th, 2010 at 9:36 am
Here are two websites spelling out the “mandates” by the feds. The requirement is that the license holders were to convert to narrowband. Not digital, trunking, or opensky.
http://www.apcointl.com/frequency/documents/NarrowbandOrder.html
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/technology/communication/fcc-narrowbanding.htm
Despite not being able to monitor anymore, where is the interoperability that the system is supposed to give? OpenSky has it’s own protocols, and does not use the open standard APCO25 protocols. No one else in the state/region can currently talk on the system with their radios. Milwaukee is really any further ahead than what it was with the old system, other than having a few analog mutual aid channels on 800 now, which has nothing to do with they “system” itself.
February 13th, 2010 at 10:27 am
I hope they aren’t doing frequency hopping.
I don’t see the department being able to ensure that every radio’s time is synched all the time, recognize when they are not in synch, and make the fix, in order to make FH work.
February 13th, 2010 at 10:31 am
I also think the department needs to do a better job of training and ENFORCING good radio discipline. This will help minimize some of the weaknesses.
Transmissions need to be short and to the point. No rambling. No life stories. No suspect descriptions that sound as if someone is dictating an incident report on the air.
This applies to dispatchers, coppers, supervisors, and those who train them.
February 13th, 2010 at 10:33 am
How about holding someone accountable for this?
Why can’t we recover money from a business which sold us something that doesn’t work, or doesn’t work as they advertised it would when they sold us the system?
Why can’t the misconduct in public office of the people that put us in this position by their actions years ago be prosecuted?
February 13th, 2010 at 10:58 am
A good friend of mine reminded me of this: http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/49652902.html
February 13th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Hmm, No bid contract for a police computer system, and a no bid contract for IP based police radio system. Both have major problems.
February 13th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
@mkescan:
What I mean is maybe the reason PD radios still only have 16 channels to use just like they had on the old radios is because the system might be overloaded or close to it already
Then the question is how many ‘channels’ are allocated to the PD group and how many subs are available on each channel? I don’t know the answer to that but, say, they have 5 channels of 5 subs; that’s 25 available comm lines just for the PD group, not counting the control frequency.
However, if the entire system is designed with 5 total channels then the PD,FD, and DPW share those 25 comm lines. I certainly can see that being a problem if, as you say, the PD’s original 16-channel analog system was already stuffed.
What I’m really questioning (“stunned”, is the word) is the delay factor. A cop keys a radio and before he can actually transmit his message the system has to ID and authorize the initial key signal, hunt for an unused frequency (sub-channel), flash all the repeaters, flash all the group radios, and repeaters and radios then auto-adjust? Now add in the inherent delay in digital transceiving…
Maybe a second or two total, but add it up.
And what’s the timeout before a frequency is marked ‘unused’ again? If you are a patrolman checking a plate on a parking violation, no big deal. But if you are in pursuit and your comm link goes off line because the timeout is to short, you have to walk through the link cycle over and over and over? That would be absurd!
Again, since I don’t know the specifics of the MPD’s OpenSky system I’m just guessing and asking the questions.
You ‘prolly have a better feel for all this from watching your scanner.
@stalker3:
I don’t see the department being able to ensure that every radio’s time is synched all the time,
I have a clock on the wall that has a chip the size of thumbtack head that reads GMT pushed off some satellite every 15 seconds. Since OpenSky is basically a wireless network I would guess the radios sync time off the controller, if needed, and probably one of the first ops in the boot when one first turns them on.
That is, when they can actually link up.
February 13th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
You’re not losing your mind, MjM. Our entries were edited to smooth out the bumps in the road so to speak…but it wasn’t me…one of my detail-oriented cohorts.
February 14th, 2010 at 9:26 am
Translation: It was Bruce.
Since Roland’s comment had been attributed to me, after Roland cleared up the confusion, I edited the comment to aid anyone who didn’t read this thread from start to finish.
Carry on.
February 17th, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Got a update today from a source.
Radios definitely are not working any better. There are still plenty of dead spots.
Also audio doesn’t sound any better since they took the UHF patch down. So I guess their test failed?
February 17th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
It would be interesting to know if those dead spots are static or dynamic and if the cops falling into them are stationary or on the move.
February 18th, 2010 at 11:28 pm
Wow! almost sounds like this guy (Ray Air) is talking about Milwaukee.
http://tinyurl.com/ykxhdtl
Also interesting info about this Open Sky group on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=58505307886
I was told it was started by a cop whose department switched to Open Sky.
Most of the members are fellow officers.
The media refuses to cover the story about how the system is a danger to its users.
February 19th, 2010 at 8:16 pm
[...] because of all the problems Hey Tencom, check out all the Milwaukee Cops lying about OpenSky http://badgerblogger.com/?p=15509 Last edited by mkescan; Today at 03:41 PM.. Reason: [...]
February 19th, 2010 at 10:21 pm
@mkescan…at the radioreference.com forum linked in the comment prior to this one, you mention “Milwaukee cops” lying here at Badger Blogger. Are you referring to commentators here or the public interview/statement given by Capt. Audra Williams?
From what I’ve read, Open Sky is just a particular brand of digital radio. There are success stories out there in switching from analog to non-OpenSky digital equipment.
In regards to Capt. Williams’ statement, it’s my humble opinion he is lying through his teeth. Is that why it’s no longer available online?
February 19th, 2010 at 11:52 pm
I can’t believe anyone from MPD’s command staff or Internal Affairs would ever be a liar…
Nan had everyone take ethics training.
February 20th, 2010 at 1:02 am
MjM,
the dead spots are both static and dynamic. There are dead spots on the sidewalk, on a residential street, in the brick walled basement of a two story home, within police stations, etc. The officers dutifully report the trouble, but there seems to be no improvement.
February 20th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Roland,
I didn’t really mean Milwaukee Cops are lying.
That was a reply to some guy named Tencom http://tinyurl.com/yzo9pcs who is a major Open Sky lover who thinks every bad thing said about MPD having problems is lies & we have no proof to back up what we are saying.
So I told him to check out all the Milwaukee Cops lying here.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he is the retired MPD officer who you said was deeply involved in the evaluation process.
This N3IVK http://tinyurl.com/yj2g3jp had a really good reply to Tencom
February 21st, 2010 at 7:41 pm
@andykilvinsky:
If its that bad then the only conscionable thing to do would be to ashcan the system RIGHT THIS MOMENT and sue the bejeezes outta OpenSky. Go get a bunch of NextTel phones for the short term. Can’t be worse.
$17 friggin million. Nobody case studied. Nobody did needs analysis or system comparison. Nobody site tested. Just Whoop-dee-do we got some “free” cash, Katie bar the door.
And you Blues are taking it on the chin.
February 26th, 2010 at 1:28 am
I guess Milwaukee Fire Chief doesn’t care about all the problems.
MFD is saying they could be installing OpenSky mobiles in March, and have it finished by the end of the year.
Why install something that doesn’t work?
If Cops have to wait sometimes now before they can talk, just wait until Fire Dept starts training with the radios making the system freqs even more busy.
February 26th, 2010 at 7:01 am
[...] Fire Department may begin installing the OpenSky radio system. This is the same system that Milwaukee police officers have been complaining about since it was forced on them. A system that doesn’t work when they need it most. Now city leadership is going to send our [...]
March 5th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Well this is interesting. Wonder why the UHF / Open Sky patch is still up for Mayor’s Protection Unit & City Hall Security? Maybe they don’t like or trust the Open Sky system.
I wonder if Barret’s security people still use UHF radios.
Mayor Barrett take down that patch!
March 6th, 2010 at 8:59 pm
[...] Our post on the switch one month ago elicited a large, and disturbing response. Even though the system was not preforming as needed for the safety of our officers, it was decided remove the long time analog radio system, leaving officers to rely on a radio that didn’t work when they needed it most. [...]
March 28th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
[...] Question for Milwaukee Police Officers — OpenSky [...]